tv Piers Morgan Live CNN March 16, 2013 2:00am-3:00am PDT
>> so as mr. alexander's coming towards you, he now has a knife in your hand. that's what you're telling us? >> no, i didn't say that either. >> okay, as mr. alexander is getting blasted and going down, he's got the knife in his hand, right? >> objection, argumentative. >> overruled. >> that was all in the same time moment he was lunging at my. >> he doesn't have the knife in his hand, does he? >> not in that particular moment, no. >> ma'am, i'm asking you, at that particular time, he didn't have the knife in his hands, right? >> i just said no.
>> and he goes down, sort of next to you, right? >> yes. we both go tumbling. >> sure you both go down. you never told us that you had a knife there, did you? >> no, i wasn't asked. >> oh, i see. so what you're saying is now he has the knife with him, right? now that's what you're saying, he's got the knife. >> i didn't say that either. >> well, which one is it, ma'am? does he have the knife or he doesn't have the knife? you were there? >> argumentative. >> sustained. >> in order to catch her, he used details. you know, it's been said often that the devil is in the details. what i would say, that in this case, the devil's there all right, but he's in the timecodes, the timestamps, because the prosecution playing off the jury questions, had her go through her scenario of how the death went down all in just 62 seconds. >> in this case, what we have to
deal with, as we did the mathematics, 62 seconds. and what you're telling us, under your scenario, is that in 62 seconds you get body slammed, you do whatever you do, but you get away. you run down the hallway, you go in the closet, you grab a gun, you back up, you shoot mr. alexander. after you shoot mr. alexander, the -- you pick up the camera, because you said it's the only possibility, and he's already down the hallway with his throat slit. right? that's what you're telling us happened? >> it's argumentative lack of foundation. >> overruled. you may answer. >> i didn't say that was the only possibility, with the camera. so that wasn't correct the way you asked it.
i don't know that his throat is slit in that picture either. >> i'm not asking you about the possibility. i'm asking you if you're telling us that within 62 seconds he -- you dropped the camera because that precipitates these things and we have this where there's some action, exhibit 161, that in the 62 seconds between that photograph and exhibit 162, you are body slammed, you get away, you go down the hallway, you go in the closet, you get the gun, you go into the bathroom again, you then turn around and you point the gun, you shoot him, he goes down, he's still pawing at you and saying [ bleep ] kill you. and then after you're able to get away, you go get the knife
and he ends up at the end of the hallway, all in 62 seconds. that's what you're telling us? >> no, that's not what i'm saying. and he didn't say [ bleep ] until i got away. >> pardon? >> he didn't say [ bleep ] kill you until i got away. you said he said it before i broke away but he said it right as i broke away. >> in order to even describe the death in its most rudimentary way, it takes more than 62 seconds to just tell the story of how travis alexander was in the shower posing for a sexy shower photos at jodi arias' request. that she dropped the camera, the digital camera that he loved, his new camera, that he became infuriated even though he had never had this reaction in the past when she had blown out his car and slashed his tires and called his girlfriends and hacked into his e-mail and hacked into his bank accounts. but this time when she dropped the digital camera he became enraged.
and went after her, yelling at her, threatening her. that she ran, that she ran into his closet, slammed the door, climbed on a shelf that can only hold 40 pounds, got on top of another shelf, grabbed a gun that only she knew about that was full of live ammunition and caught. >> if it wasn't loaded, ma'am, and you told us before that mr. alexander told you it wasn't loaded, right? >> he did. >> he told you that, right? >> he told us both. >> you told that to the jury, right? >> yes. >> and mr. alexander said it was not loaded, right? >> he said one day it was not loaded and it was loaded. >> ma'am, you did include the part of loading and that he did tell you it was unloaded, right? >> initially he insured me it was not loaded. >> right. so you go with these words of mr. alexander telling you that you believed it was unloaded and you also take your belief that
you think it's unloaded based on what he told you and you take this, run into this closet to get that, what were you going to do with the gun? throw it at him? >> objection, this testimony is argumentative. >> sustained. >> what were you going to do with the gun if it's unloaded, ma'am? >> i testified that i pointed it at him. >> i'm not asking you what you testified to. >> that he body slammed her, that she shot the gun, pulled the trigger. >> you agreed that it requires you to put your finger on the trigger and pull it for it to fire, right? >> that's my understanding, yes. >> well, you were there, right? >> yes. >> and so you fired the gun, you shot him in the head, and you killed him, right? >> objection, your honor. mischaracterizing the evidence. >> overruled. >> right? >> yeah. >> but even though that bullet ripped threw part of travis
alexander's brain, he still continued to curse and yell at her. a gunshot wound that would have been fatal, he continued to pursue her. that she got up and ran, but instead of leaving, she ran back into the bathroom where she proceeds to stab him 29 times and drag him back into the shower. just telling that story takes longer than 62 seconds. i must say that the jury we're here! we're going to the park! [ gina ] oh hey, dan! i really like your new jetta! and you want to buy one like mine because it's so safe, right? yeah... yeah... i know what you've heard -- iihs top safety pick for $159 a month -- but, i wish it was more dangerous, like a monster truck or dune buggy! you can't have the same car as me! [ male announcer ] now everyone's going to want one. let's get a jetta.
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i must say that the jury questioning of jodie arias has been one of the most devastating cross-exams that i have ever seen. >> you said you remember putting the knife in the dishwasher after killing travis, but you also say you don't remember anything after dropping the knife on the bathroom tile. which is correct? >> well, i was -- i know that he was trying to pin me on a black and white answer, but i have a vague memory of putting a knife in the dishwasher, i'm just not sure if that's the memory from june 4th or confusing that with a prior incident because i have done dishes in the house many time, and i have mentioned i have a vague memory of doing that, and we used his knife to cut the rope so it's possible that knife went back into the dishwasher. >> that's the risk you take when you put a client on the stand. especially in the handful of jurisdictions that allow jury questioning. they don't mess around, all right?
they get down to it and they ask the questions that you want to ask, that i want to ask. >> you are stating you believe you stabbed travis based on logic. how do you explain the blood on your hands and clothes and the bloody palm print on the wall? >> well -- i do know that we struggled that day. and -- i mean, based on logic, it would have been because of how we fought. i don't know how things ended up where they ended up. i just know that we were fighting, physically. >> in response to jury questions, martinez, the prosecutor, got jodi arias to admit that at the time she shot travis alex ender, now, remember the medical examiner contends that the shooting was last, that
all the stabs, the 29 slashings and stabbings were first, then the gunshot, but the prosecution got arias to say that when she shot travis alexander she did not have a knife with her. which makes her story even more implausible. >> at some point you do remember that you had the knife in your hand, correct? >> i don't remember that part. >> do you remember at some point indicating to this jury that you dropped the knife, do you remember saying that? >> i do remember that, yes. >> so if you dropped the knife, where did you drop it from if not your hand? >> presumably my hand, i just don't remember gripping it. >> did i ask you whether or not you gripped it? >> that's what i took it as. >> did i ask you if you gripped the knife? >> you didn't use those words specifically. >> right. i asked you whether or not the knife was in your hand, do you remember that? >> um, i don't remember you wording it that way.
>> did you drop the knife? >> yes, i did. >> did you tell that to the jury? >> yes, i did. >> did you tell them that you screamed, right? >> yes, i did. >> so the knife was in your hands, right? >> yes, it was. >> and the issue of gripping has nothing to do with it, does it? >> um, i would think it would. >> did you think how strongly you were gripping it is important though to the case? >> i wasn't talking about the strength of the grip just that >> i'm asking you that now. >> will you repeat that? >> do you think how strongly you were gripping it is important to this case? >> objection. argumentative in relevance. >> overruled. >> i wouldn't know. >> you brought this up about not gripping it. you seem to think that's important. why do you think that's important? >> objection. argumentative. >> sustained. >> you did have the knife in your hand, right? >> yes. >> it was after the shooting according to you, right? >> yes. >> and you previously had seen that knife in the bedroom, right?
>> um, i don't recall -- i think it was at one point, but i know it was definitely in the bathroom, but it may have gone to the bedroom, i'm not sure. >> and you did drop the knife, right? >> yes, i did. >> and after dropping the knife, you took it with you, right? >> um -- >> overruled. >> took it where? >> i'm asking you, where did you take it? >> i have no idea. >> you don't remember -- you said you dropped the knife, right? >> yes, i shall that. >> when the jury asked you the question, i indicated that you took certain items, do you remember saying that? >> yes. >> and you said the gun, right? >> i remember the gun. >> right? and a number of other items you took, right? >> um, just the items i remember are -- >> overruled. >> the items i remember are my luggage, of course, and i remember the rope and the gun. i don't remember having the knife at any point after i was a little more lucid. >> so what?
as he was body slamming her and beating her within an inch of her life, after he has been shot, she took the time after she shoots him to go run and find a butcher knife and come back and then stab him 29 times? that doesn't even make sense! her story is falling apart. as we knew it would, because it is a lie. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?
around and you point the gun, you shoot him, he goes down, he's still pawing at you and saying [ bleep ] kill you. [ bleep ] and then after you're able to get away, you go get the knife and he ends up at the end of the hallway, all in 62 seconds, that's what you're telling us? >> no, that's not what i'm saying. and he didn't say [ bleep ] until i got away. >> pardon? >> he didn't say [ bleep ] kill you until after i got away, you said i said it before i broke away but he said it after i broke away. >> quite often jodi arias is not answering a question directly. she elaborates, she skirts around it, she never really answers it. she tries to leave herself wiggle room. why? for closing argument purposes. so she won't have in her own mind really being trapped in an answer. >> the fog or the confusion only begins when he starts screaming
or if there's a fear that maybe there's going to be tension or some kind of escalation of anger or violence. and then certain incidents such as the physical pain is crystallized in my mind. >> she thinks she wiggled out of it, not really giving the prosecution what they want, but what she doesn't realize is that by avoiding or deflecting questions, direct questions by the jury or by the prosecution, she looks like she's evading the truth. and if the truth were on her side, she would not have to evade it. >> that more or less you're condemned to hell. >> for money, right? >> yes. >> you don't really follow the book of mormon, when you told that to the jury, you don't really follow that, do you? >> objection. >> overruled. >> well, you're talking be about what time period. >> if i'm talking about your life, ma'am, this is what we're
talking about, isn't it true that you told the jury that this book sort of governs the way you style your life, right? >> i didn't say that. >> no, it isn't -- doesn't it govern your life, isn't that what we just talked about? >> she would look at the jury and tell them what happened, exactly what happened. >> ma'am, were you crying when you were shooting him? >> i don't remember. >> were you crying when you were stabbing him? >> i don't remember. >> how about when you cut his throat, were you crying then? >> i don't know. >> so take a look then. and you're the one that did this, right? >> yes. >> and you're the same individual that lied about all this, right? >> yes. >> so then take a look at it. >> but she needs wiggle room. why? because she can't tell the jury the truth, that she was angry and scorned. >> why did you confront travis after seeing him with another
woman through his backyard window if it was not due to jealousy? >> i felt that because he was making an effort, this was also right after he had -- we had just slept together consensually, and we went all the way and he said i love you and all these things, so i felt like we were getting bag together. and when i saw that, it seemed in contrast to what he had been telling me for the past month, month and a half. so what -- my intention was to go there and just find out what's the -- >> she was not asked why she was confronted. >> i'm explaining why i went over there. >> you may continue. >> so my intention of going over there was not out of jealousy, but because i wanted to know where i stood. are we still trying this? do you have a new girlfriend, if he did, that was fine, i just wanted to know was all. >> furious travis alexander was choosing another woman over her.
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you know, i really thought i had seen and heard it all after trying well over 100 felony cases, taking place on over 10,000 felony cases and giving birth to twins. but now it's all been topped with transient global amnesia. >> with regard to transient amnesic syndrome, is that the title of the article you relied upon? >> yes. >> can you tell us what this article has to say? >> basically it says that temporarily circumscribed amnesia, which means time-limited amnesia, amnesia from the starting point to tend
point, whatever that is, is associated with a specific and unusually emotionally charged event such as a criminal offense. now the interesting thing is that the data shows that the proportion of amnesia is proportional to the violence of the offense. and up to 30% of convicted homicide cases have amnesia claimed at trial. it's been established that perpetrators of horrible crimes can also develop post-traumatic stress disorder for having acted as the source of the crime. for example, soldiers, our soldiers in afghanistan report post-traumatic stress disorder because they were involved in killing of the enemy. police officers, people that i treated, who shoot a victim either accidentally or on purpose, deliberately in the line of duty, also can develop post-traumatic stress disorder. >> that is the defense. that jodi arias in just the few moments that it took to slash and stab and shoot travis
alexander to death in those few moments of her life she has amnesia? she can't remember anything? she's in a, quote, fog? >> in the moments of stress or fog, how do you recall what happened in those moments if it affects your memory? >> i don't recall clearly what happens in those moments. as far as details, every detail, i just -- sometimes i have a general sense of what's going on and sometimes i don't. but as far as the fog goes, it's more, again, just words that are being spoken or screamed or yelled and that's what processing that sort of thing -- physical things i can remember because i feel them physically. i can remember what i feel internally and emotionally as well, but it's more the words that are being spoken and their meanings, but i do remember what i feel. if that makes any sense. >> and more shocking, did you know that transient global amnesia can be brought on by sex?
>> in the general population, between three and eight people per 100,000 people each year experience transient global amnesia. the amazing thing is that, here are the things that can cause that. sudden immersion in cold or hot water, physical exertion, emotional or psychological stress, pain, medical procedures, sexual intercourse and similar events have been observed in 50% to 90% of these documented attacks of transient global amnesia. >> i guess we're all in trouble, huh? it could also be brought on by stress, now i know we are in trouble. so their defense is actually going to be that she can't remember slashing her lover to death in the shower stall because she had too much sex or
was under stress, are you kidding me? and he's absolutely saying this with a straight face? another fact that was revealed this week that i found shocking, that i don't know if anybody else noticed, but i noticed it. jodi arias lied to her own shrink, to her own psychologist. now, i've averaged out the time that he spent with her, he has spent on the average four treatments a year with her. he has seen her four times a year. and for about half that time she lied to him in her own defense using that ridiculous ninja theory that a man and a woman dressed as ninjas all in black broke into travis alexander's home and killed him and let her go after reciting her information off her driver's license, of course.
she stuck with that story for about half the time that she was with this shrink for the defense. so that narrows it down to about six sessions in all six meetings in all in life, and he has come up with her having transient global amnesia? i'd be interested to find out if she's being treated for this condition. i don't think she is. it must have been a one-time occurrence. coincidentally when she murdered travis alexander. çoçñ
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and this is his testimony to the jury this week, is more confident, is more in control and more positive in her life. >> when you first met ms. arias, what was her -- what was she like as far as self-esteem and her confidence level? and you first met her in 2009? >> i felt that she was a woman with a low self-esteem. i saw her as a relatively, pretty much a pacifist, and i had read all her writings by that point. i realized she was confused. i suspected that there was more to the story than she first revealed. and, of course, that expressed some concern to me, because in order to do a proper evaluation, you have to confront eventually stories that may seem to be improbable. >> did you notice any change in her self-esteem from then until more recently?
>> yes. the end of last year i found her to be more confident and more in control of her feelings. more positive about her life, she was very depressed when i first met her, and she talked about suicide and so on, so that depression seemed to have lifted to a large degree by the last time i had seen her. >> is that relevant? do we care? the point is what happened the day of the murder of travis alexander. i'm happy that jodi arias is more confident now, but what i really want to know about is the day she slashed and stabbed travis alexander 29 times. topping it all off by capping him in the head with a .25 and left him to die, to rot in a wet shower stall.
that's what i'm interested in. i'm not really interested in her holding hands in a group and feeling confident. i don't care. and, let me point out that this week we learn after nearly 20 days on the stand, first we learned on, i think, day 17 that travis alexander had proposed marriage to her. oops, i forgot after my 17 days on the stand. >> but it still remains that i cannot marry him. i can't quite put my finger on it, but something is just off with that boy. >> was this subject of marriage previous to january 24th? was that something you and travis were discussing? >> yes, we have discussed it prior to that date. >> and had he ever proposed to you? >> yeah, he did over the phone once. there were times when he said it
jokingly, but that one over the phone, i believed he was serious. >> you can't quite put your finger on it, but something is off with that boy. what did you mean by that? >> well, that's kind of my indirect way of referring to his issues that were, in my mind, something i couldn't look past and accept. >> now we learn toward the end of her testimony that she observed travis alexander load the .25. we have never heard that before, ever in 18 days of testimony. >> so you believed that that gun was unloaded, right? >> um, i believed him. >> no, you believed that the gun was unloaded. i'm not asking whether or not you believed him. i'm asking whether or not you believed that gun was unloaded. >> objection, your honor. >> overruled.
>> well, i believed him when he assured me that when i first found it, but he did end up loading it at one point. >> what's that? >> he loaded it at one point in early december. >> whether he loaded, that's something you didn't tell us before, right? >> i mentioned it. i didn't say he loaded it in early december, but i mentioned at one point it was unloaded and one point he used it. >> so you're saying he used it, right? >> when you're saying he used it, i know he took it to go do something. >> right. and this is something we're hearing for the first time, right? >> no, i mentioned it briefly, it just wasn't expounded upon. >> okay. and this gun that you say that you saw him load, even though you saw him load it, you believed on june 4th of 2008 was unloaded, right? >> i didn't know. i didn't check it. >> did i ask you if you checked it, ma'am? >> objection. she's answering the question. that's argumentative. >> sustained. >> i'm asking for your state of mind. did you believe or not believe
that the gun was loaded? one way or the other? what did you believe? >> objection. she said she didn't know. >> overruled. you may answer. >> um, i didn't really stop to think about whether it was loaded or not, so i don't know. i just -- the only time the gun came to my head, i grabbed it and pointed it at him so he would halt. >> ma'am, didn't you tell the jury when you were talking about the attack, in response to one of their questions, that you believed the gun was unloaded. do you remember saying that? yes or no? that's all i'm asking, yes or no? >> i don't know. >> and if you listen to her testimony and very carefully compare it to the testimony of her shrink, forensic psychologist, dr. richard samuels, you'll hear the same buzz words. she has tailored her testimony to his diagnosis and likewise. and i find that contrary to what
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this week in court we saw the use of an age-old trick by the defense, and that is not submitting or adhering to the rules of evidence, the rules of court and the rules of discovery. as all you legal eagles know, the prosecution must turn over far before the trial, witnesses names, addresses, ways to reach
them, sometimes summaries of the witnesses' testimony, including autopsy reports, crime scene analysis, you name it, photos, whatever they plan to use at trial, the defense must be privy to far in advance of trial. now, that discovery requirement is reciprocal. the defense must hand over certain things to the state as
evidence would not be allowed in more than likely, because they didn't hand it to the defense. because the defense did it, what's the remedy, you'll have about 45 minutes to look at this. that was the cure. it's not very fair, is it? but that's the way the law works, and the judge was correct in her ruling under the law. and as i have said, and this is a quote. i can't take credit for it. if that is the law, then the law is an act.
significant testimony was revealed this week when jodi arias was caught in a question that really originated from the jury questions. and it came on follow up by the prosecution. she was forced to admit under oath that she did not have the knife in her hand at the time she shot travis alexander. >> on her final day on the
stand, jodi arias was schooled in mathematics. do the math, the prosecutor attempted to show. her story doesn't add up. martinez says arias would not have time to go searching for the knife she used to stab travis and slit his throat. he says she must have had the knife with her in the bathroom when shy was taking these digital pictures of a naked alexander in the shower. >> it would have taken time to actually look for it, wouldn't it? >> i guess under that theory. >> sure, under that theory. it would take time, right? >> yeah. i guess. >> to prove his theory of premeditation, the prosecutor showed these two photographs, taken just 62 seconds apart according to their time stamp. arias says this accidental photo of the ceiling was taken when he
lunged at her. >> you are body slammed? you get away? you get the gun. you shoot him. and then after you're able to get away you go get the knife and he ends up at the end of the hallway all in 62 seconds. that's what you're telling us? >> no, that's not what i'm saying. >> regardless of what arias is saying the photo time stamps say something else. arias' foot is seen next to his bleeding body. by now he's been stabbed and shot. with just 62 seconds between the photos have been enough time to